Carter Wrenn and I were on WUNC’s Due South this week talking about the decline of civil discourse – and how two adversaries became friends and blogging partners.

You can listen here.

We told how we met negotiating rules for the debates between Jim Hunt and Jesse Helms.

“There was ice in the room,” Carter said.

“I looked over and saw the devil,” I said.

Nearly 20 years later, we worked together on a bipartisan project. We enjoyed working with each other – and talking about politics.

That’s when we started this blog. We’re still at it more than 20 years later.

Host Jeff Tiberii asked us why political discourse has become so angry and mean-spirited.

Carter noted that lying used to be fatal in politics; it’s why Nixon had to resign.

“Today, a politician lies, and people say, ‘so what?’” he said.

I told Jeff I’d like to blame Trump – and he deserves blame – but he reflects two long-term trends: the death of truth, which comes partly because of the decline of local journalism, and the rise of hate, which is fueled by social-media companies.

Jeff asked if things could change.

I said this is an opportunity for Democrats to offer a positive alternative.

Carter said, “The American people can change it. If they don’t like it, they can vote for something different.”

On that, we agree.